I'm sure donotbug is correct as to the intended meaning of the song, however I took something quite different away from it.
I understand Red is a Christian band, and though I'm an atheist, this song is, like most great songs, open to interpretation. So open, in fact, that you can take it the completely opposite direction. Religion claims to be able to heal people, but often only represents the death of their critical thought. They also tear people down through the myth of "original sin," telling people to feel unworthy of Christ's gift, which builds them up.
Just another take on it. Again, I'm positive that the artist didn't intend this meaning.
ClemsonPoker, I really appreciate your humility...it really gets on my nerves when both Christians and Athiests verbally tear each others throats out. I'm a little confused as to what you mean by saying that Christianity tears people down. Definitely it does teach that we are not worth of God's love, however it also puts a great deal of emphasis on each individual's intrinsic worth...a worth assigned to them by God and shown through Christ's death and resurrection. I just wanted to clarify that (perhaps i misunderstood what you were saying). Also, yes, i agree many religious...
ClemsonPoker, I really appreciate your humility...it really gets on my nerves when both Christians and Athiests verbally tear each others throats out. I'm a little confused as to what you mean by saying that Christianity tears people down. Definitely it does teach that we are not worth of God's love, however it also puts a great deal of emphasis on each individual's intrinsic worth...a worth assigned to them by God and shown through Christ's death and resurrection. I just wanted to clarify that (perhaps i misunderstood what you were saying). Also, yes, i agree many religious people unfortunately just blindly believe things...which is unfortunate, but I have to say there are many Christians who examine the evidence for their faith and do critically think about these things and everything else. Good points though, and again, I'm really impressed by your kindness and humility...it is rare in any opposing viewpoint debate, especially those of religion.
I agree that the level of discourse between the two could generally be higher, and in fact even my own post could have been worded differently, perhaps more politely.
I agree that the level of discourse between the two could generally be higher, and in fact even my own post could have been worded differently, perhaps more politely.
The dogmatic idea that we are not worthy of Christ is, at it's core, debilitating to your sense of self. It's designed that way (my opinion, of course), so that the religion can rush in behind to fill the void that they hope you don't notice THEY created. The message seems to be "Jesus loves you and forgives you, but that's in spite of the fact that you're a...
The dogmatic idea that we are not worthy of Christ is, at it's core, debilitating to your sense of self. It's designed that way (my opinion, of course), so that the religion can rush in behind to fill the void that they hope you don't notice THEY created. The message seems to be "Jesus loves you and forgives you, but that's in spite of the fact that you're a filthy sinner who can't be trusted to make basic decisions for yourself."
Some churches (generally liberal churches) focus heavily on the "Jesus loves and forgives you" part, and some (generally fundamentalist churches) focus on the "you're a filthy sinner" bit, but both sides of the coin are there in every church.
To the latter part of your post, I agree. It's self evident to me that there are in fact thoughtful Christians whose positions are carefully considered. I happen to think they've flubbed their logic somewhere along the way, but I certainly have no special knowledge that ends this debate (sadly, eh?). As I'm fond of saying, I don't really respect your religion, but I do respect your right to live in service of it if that is your wish.
Yeah, Poker - I took that view of it too. Knowing Red is a Christian band and that most of his songs are talking to/about God, I was honestly questioning if he lost his religion after hearing this song. I kind of assumed he'd finally been pushed too far with the "filthy sinner" (as you put it) side of things and was done. That's pretty much still my personal interpretation of the song.
Yeah, Poker - I took that view of it too. Knowing Red is a Christian band and that most of his songs are talking to/about God, I was honestly questioning if he lost his religion after hearing this song. I kind of assumed he'd finally been pushed too far with the "filthy sinner" (as you put it) side of things and was done. That's pretty much still my personal interpretation of the song.
I thought your definition was an interesting take on this song - it does seem to match quite nicely. I also see where you're coming from with the 'two sides of the coin' thing.
I just thought I'd say that the 'void' - need for forgiveness of sins - wasn't really put there by the church.
If you look around the world today, I believe it's pretty plain to see that mankind do pretty horrible things to each other. Suicide, murder, rape, theft, war and corruption, lying, drugs, bullying, boasting or selfishness - I don't think that anyone can...
I thought your definition was an interesting take on this song - it does seem to match quite nicely. I also see where you're coming from with the 'two sides of the coin' thing.
I just thought I'd say that the 'void' - need for forgiveness of sins - wasn't really put there by the church.
If you look around the world today, I believe it's pretty plain to see that mankind do pretty horrible things to each other. Suicide, murder, rape, theft, war and corruption, lying, drugs, bullying, boasting or selfishness - I don't think that anyone can say they've never done something like this.
Only Jesus has lived a perfect life, which is why (I believe) he was the only one who could take the punishment for these wrongs.
It's hard to see why we need a saviour without realising our sinfulness, and it's pretty depressing to only ever hear about our sins and not forgiveness.
Anyway, that's what I believe. I'm with TLS that this is one of the most polite religious conversations I've ever heard - let's keep it that way! :)
I think it's cool that people can talk like this and not be trying to beat the other, but I would like to just through this out there. I know from personal experience that you don't need religion to tell you that you are "not worthy" you just get that feeling in your gut that you don't deserve anything
I think it's cool that people can talk like this and not be trying to beat the other, but I would like to just through this out there. I know from personal experience that you don't need religion to tell you that you are "not worthy" you just get that feeling in your gut that you don't deserve anything
I'm sure donotbug is correct as to the intended meaning of the song, however I took something quite different away from it.
I understand Red is a Christian band, and though I'm an atheist, this song is, like most great songs, open to interpretation. So open, in fact, that you can take it the completely opposite direction. Religion claims to be able to heal people, but often only represents the death of their critical thought. They also tear people down through the myth of "original sin," telling people to feel unworthy of Christ's gift, which builds them up.
Just another take on it. Again, I'm positive that the artist didn't intend this meaning.
ClemsonPoker, I really appreciate your humility...it really gets on my nerves when both Christians and Athiests verbally tear each others throats out. I'm a little confused as to what you mean by saying that Christianity tears people down. Definitely it does teach that we are not worth of God's love, however it also puts a great deal of emphasis on each individual's intrinsic worth...a worth assigned to them by God and shown through Christ's death and resurrection. I just wanted to clarify that (perhaps i misunderstood what you were saying). Also, yes, i agree many religious...
ClemsonPoker, I really appreciate your humility...it really gets on my nerves when both Christians and Athiests verbally tear each others throats out. I'm a little confused as to what you mean by saying that Christianity tears people down. Definitely it does teach that we are not worth of God's love, however it also puts a great deal of emphasis on each individual's intrinsic worth...a worth assigned to them by God and shown through Christ's death and resurrection. I just wanted to clarify that (perhaps i misunderstood what you were saying). Also, yes, i agree many religious people unfortunately just blindly believe things...which is unfortunate, but I have to say there are many Christians who examine the evidence for their faith and do critically think about these things and everything else. Good points though, and again, I'm really impressed by your kindness and humility...it is rare in any opposing viewpoint debate, especially those of religion.
Your friend, TL
Hi, TLS.
Hi, TLS.
I agree that the level of discourse between the two could generally be higher, and in fact even my own post could have been worded differently, perhaps more politely.
I agree that the level of discourse between the two could generally be higher, and in fact even my own post could have been worded differently, perhaps more politely.
The dogmatic idea that we are not worthy of Christ is, at it's core, debilitating to your sense of self. It's designed that way (my opinion, of course), so that the religion can rush in behind to fill the void that they hope you don't notice THEY created. The message seems to be "Jesus loves you and forgives you, but that's in spite of the fact that you're a...
The dogmatic idea that we are not worthy of Christ is, at it's core, debilitating to your sense of self. It's designed that way (my opinion, of course), so that the religion can rush in behind to fill the void that they hope you don't notice THEY created. The message seems to be "Jesus loves you and forgives you, but that's in spite of the fact that you're a filthy sinner who can't be trusted to make basic decisions for yourself."
Some churches (generally liberal churches) focus heavily on the "Jesus loves and forgives you" part, and some (generally fundamentalist churches) focus on the "you're a filthy sinner" bit, but both sides of the coin are there in every church.
To the latter part of your post, I agree. It's self evident to me that there are in fact thoughtful Christians whose positions are carefully considered. I happen to think they've flubbed their logic somewhere along the way, but I certainly have no special knowledge that ends this debate (sadly, eh?). As I'm fond of saying, I don't really respect your religion, but I do respect your right to live in service of it if that is your wish.
Peace, Poker
Yeah, Poker - I took that view of it too. Knowing Red is a Christian band and that most of his songs are talking to/about God, I was honestly questioning if he lost his religion after hearing this song. I kind of assumed he'd finally been pushed too far with the "filthy sinner" (as you put it) side of things and was done. That's pretty much still my personal interpretation of the song.
Yeah, Poker - I took that view of it too. Knowing Red is a Christian band and that most of his songs are talking to/about God, I was honestly questioning if he lost his religion after hearing this song. I kind of assumed he'd finally been pushed too far with the "filthy sinner" (as you put it) side of things and was done. That's pretty much still my personal interpretation of the song.
Hey Clemson Poker,
Hey Clemson Poker,
I thought your definition was an interesting take on this song - it does seem to match quite nicely. I also see where you're coming from with the 'two sides of the coin' thing. I just thought I'd say that the 'void' - need for forgiveness of sins - wasn't really put there by the church. If you look around the world today, I believe it's pretty plain to see that mankind do pretty horrible things to each other. Suicide, murder, rape, theft, war and corruption, lying, drugs, bullying, boasting or selfishness - I don't think that anyone can...
I thought your definition was an interesting take on this song - it does seem to match quite nicely. I also see where you're coming from with the 'two sides of the coin' thing. I just thought I'd say that the 'void' - need for forgiveness of sins - wasn't really put there by the church. If you look around the world today, I believe it's pretty plain to see that mankind do pretty horrible things to each other. Suicide, murder, rape, theft, war and corruption, lying, drugs, bullying, boasting or selfishness - I don't think that anyone can say they've never done something like this. Only Jesus has lived a perfect life, which is why (I believe) he was the only one who could take the punishment for these wrongs. It's hard to see why we need a saviour without realising our sinfulness, and it's pretty depressing to only ever hear about our sins and not forgiveness. Anyway, that's what I believe. I'm with TLS that this is one of the most polite religious conversations I've ever heard - let's keep it that way! :)
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I think it's cool that people can talk like this and not be trying to beat the other, but I would like to just through this out there. I know from personal experience that you don't need religion to tell you that you are "not worthy" you just get that feeling in your gut that you don't deserve anything
I think it's cool that people can talk like this and not be trying to beat the other, but I would like to just through this out there. I know from personal experience that you don't need religion to tell you that you are "not worthy" you just get that feeling in your gut that you don't deserve anything