Fuck Machine

I'm glad someone finally came out and said these things. I like that he directly addresses the conflict between his hatred of the objectification of women, and his conditioned attraction to these stereotypes that exist in society.

I think "Refusing to be a Man" is a more nuanced look at the issues - then again he was older and wiser when he wrote that. It doesn't sit well with me that a man, from his privileged gender, can write something like "do you really want to be our fucking toys? And in again, just condone it with a grin. Sit back, idly chat, smile, prove you're just a fuck machine. Is that what you really want to fucking be?" I don't think men on the left should be trying to pretend they know what life is like for women and what their choices should be. It surprises me how long they kept playing this song live before they thought better of it.

That line you quoted is telling women to actually treat themselves as human beings and not objects. Don't allow themselves to be treated as objects. And, in turn, men should not allow the media to decide for them ("conditioned attraction") who is desirable. "humour, opinion, a sense of compassion, creativity and a distaste for fashion" is what he looks for in a woman, and he seems to be trying to remind himself of that at the end of the song.

I'm not sure what's so wrong about a song imploring women to respect themselves and for men to not let outside forces influence who they are attracted to.

Well m.k., I sure hope that two years after posting that comment you're a little older and wiser yourself, now. Men (on the left) shouldn't try to understand women, you assert? Yet who claims to be the authority on what men think, feel, believe and aspire to be? Typically, feminists ...

Let's face it, it doesn't matter how supportive of feminism a man is, he will still be in the wrong by feminist standards. Here we have a guy saying, in so many words, "women, you can be so much more than sexual objects for the entertainment of men: please, this situation can change if you aspire to be more." And yet somehow, he's still being a privileged, condescending MAN. Grr!

This is because feminists have one, only one judgement when it comes to men: 'wrong'. It doesn't matter WHAT a man does; there will always, always be cause for complaint against him. He isn't doing anything for gender equality? What a patriarchal bastard. He's talking about how women can aspire to more? What a condescending bastard.

It's comments like yours that turned me away from feminism. The idea that there's this double standard; men should not try to understand women and their eternal holocaust of suffering (which by the way is extremely bad history); yet women (feminists) can make all kinds of judgements on what men should be, on how they should think about, talk to and treat women. And you continue to assert that men are 'the privileged gender'.

There's a hysterical, hyper-sensitivity that exists still in residual form from 1970s 'all men are rapists' rhetoric. It seems that if a man so much as talks to you, or even glances at you, that's basically abuse. And how do you think men in general react to such misandry? We can only follow your calls for egalitarianism up to a certain point (that is, actual equal treatment and opportunities) before it becomes absurd. Beyond that, when you keep pushing, when you keep taking a hyper-sensitive stance towards any man saying anything about women, you will lose allies.

I'd like to know what you'd have thought had a woman sung this song, or written these lyrics. Would you have said, "right on, you go girl, SISTA POWER, ROAR!" etc. Or do you disagree with the sentiments expressed - do you think that women should only try to be sex objects for the entertainment of men?

My assumption is that you would agree fully if a woman had sung these lyrics, but because a man did, he is 'wrong', as all men are, according to feminist standards. Never mind the fact that Chris was influenced by feminist writings and feminist theories when he wrote these lyrics and came to these conclusions; never mind that his goals are the same as yours; he is a man and thus, wrong. Gender politics must be a privileged domain in which only women can comment (on both genders) and men should just keep quiet, because they are 'wrong'.

What kind of sense does this make? As I've said, it's this kind of hyper-sensitive, absurd extreme reactions that turned me away from feminism altogether; and having discussed gender politics with other male friends (of course, I must have been wrong about everything I said, because I'm just a stupid ignorant man), I get the impression that this kind of reaction is widely felt. Most men I talk to are happy with the idea of gender equality, but despise being tarred as inherent rapists, abusers, 'bastards', 'pigs', etc. And it's this that makes them shun feminism. My point is this: by trying to exclude men from discussion (as feminism plainly does), you're harming your cause.