Israel

i.e. zionism.

@skunkweed Zionism is the movement for Jewish independence, as much a "belief" as the movement for Japanese or American independence. That said, the restoration of David's kingdom is intrinsic part of the Jewish religion.

This is a brilliant observation. I never thought of the Palestinian connection.<br /> I am happy to find other people who ponder this song as much as I have.

@smendler "national colours" of the Arab Revolt created in WWI by Sir Mark Sykes and adopted in whole or in part by most Arab states.

@smendler You misinterpret by taking it out of context. The next line is about a much earlier time of primitive princes and kings. <br /> Christmas was not celebrated until the 4th century. The Palestinian flag not created until 1964. <br /> The more primal interpretation of the colors is that green represents Nature, and the red spattered upon it is the blood of the people and animals who were being forced into the slavery of agriculture for meat production (hence why the dream of a garden of eden is long forgotten, tainted by the first civilization that would oppress society with laws, patriarchy, and forcing meat eating upon everyone).<br /> <br /> It's quite anarchist in nature and indeed exposes the world's first fascist propagandists to boot, the ones who practically invented hate, with more words to demonize people than any other (and prior to any other language doing so, something that spread culturally).

@smendler That's not what a trope is.

Israel does not wage wars of aggression. The situation of the Palestinians is self-made. The have rejected and spurned every opportunity to make peace. The Arabs will not accept a Jewish country on "Arab" lands and will fight with any means necessary to accomplish that goal of eliminating Israel. This is why they send their children as suicide bombers. What kind of culture is that of the Arabs??

The situation of the Palestinians is not self-made. The "War of Independence" in 1948 saw 1,380,000 Palestinians driven off their land by the Israeli army in an act of ethnic cleansing (Tanya Reinhart, 2002). <br /> <br /> Israel does wage wars of aggression. E.g. The 1967 invasion and occupation of the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula and Golan Heights + The 1982 invasion of Lebanon which left 11,000 people dead (Ibid). <br /> <br /> The vast majority of Palestinians actually will accept a Jewish country on "Arab" lands. A survey by the Bir Zeit Uni in 2002 found that "77% of Palestinians believe both Palestinians and Israelis have the right to live in peace and security" (ibid, p. 229).<br /> <br /> Arab culture is not the reason for suicide bombers; it is the sustained degradation and dehumanization of the Palestinian people which forces some individuals to become radicalized due to utter desperation and despair. <br />

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Arabs of that territory were told by the Arab armies that if they left their land, the Jews would be "pushed into the sea" and all of the land would be restored to Arab hands. <br /> <br /> 67 is hardly an act of aggression when you consider that Jordan, Syria, and Egypt were all about to attack. I suppose aggression is what it's called when Israel wins wars by large margins. <br /> Secondly, way before 67 the nations of Egypt and Jordan occupied the Gaza Strip and West Bank, respectively, without so much as a word from anyone. I wonder why.<br /> <br /> And you're right, it is not Arab culture. It is the Muslim religion that has spawned suicide bombers. Suicide bombers not only come from the West Bank and Gaza, but the entire world (including western nations). Their common denominator is Islam. <br /> <br /> Lastly, there was no desperation and despair before this whole situation, so how can Arab riots and attacks on Christians and Jews be explained before the creation of the State of Israel?

Can I have some evidence for the first claim you made. I don't understand what event you are referring to and it does not seem like a logical thing for "the Arab armies" to tell the civilian population to LEAVE if their goal was to push the Jews into the sea.<br /> <br /> Jordan, Syria and Egypt were not about to attack Israel in 67. The war was a "preemtive strike" to demonstrate Israel's military capability to America and to secure resourcouces in the middle east by destroying secular Arab nationalism, particularly Egyptian nationalism led by Nasser. Preemtive wars are illegal in international law unless approved by the UN first, and Isreal's attacks were not. The UN Security Council Resolution 242 from 67 made clear the "inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war" made by Isreal.<br /> <br /> Islam is not the cause of suciide bombers either. As I said, it is only utter desperation and desper that leads human beings to do such terrible things. Here is an article full of examples of non-Muslim sucicde attackers: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attack Note that there is a fatwa in Islam forbidding suicide bombing.<br /> <br /> I am not sure what your last point about Arab riots on Christians and Jews pre-Isreal is referring to. Can you specify which events you are referring to in particular please. Thanks.<br /> <br />

sorry for shit spelling

To the OP - that was very much my reaction to the lyrics. The false show of joy depicted is reminiscent of fascism in general, and to me that expresses the notion that Israel has become the very demon it was victimized by. In a more personal dimension, it's very accessible. The cycle of victim-to-oppressor is sort of a universal theme that might be found in history anywhere from a Greek tragedy to a Japanese existential film. <br /> <br /> To NomadMonad - First of all, I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around a neo-conservative speculating on the musings of Siouxsie and the Banshees. Did you come here looking for a debate, or do you actually listen to their music? I digress. I don't know what country or religion you think you belong to, and I don't fully understand what Zionism means to you. But I believe that history and public opinion have evidenced that the current state of Israel, from the first military occupation to the now prison-state it's become, are a true reflection of the collective will of the Jewish people. And I don't say this without having some precedence - I actively practiced Judaism and associated with Jewish people from the ages of 19 to 21, before returning to my more familiar Buddhist upbringing, and I gained a lot of perspective on the Hebrew concept of faith. And honestly, while there were plenty of Jews I met who were very politically minded and pro-Israel, the majority of Jews whom I met told me something that I reflexively believed from the beginning: according to their prophecies, God had promised to restore Israel to them at a future time. Many Jews are still waiting for that to happen. Because it wasn't God who delivered the Jews back to Israel (where, by the way, many Jews were already living alongside Muslims with relative neighborliness), was it? The motion to create the current state of Israel was driven by bankers, even though the Anti-Defamation League assures us that Prescott Bush was NOT investing in Nazi Germany's military during WWII.

@Mazort <br /> "...the now prison-state it's become, are a true reflection of the collective will of the Jewish people."<br /> <br /> I think we should be wary of anyone attributing "collective will" to whole populations unless it is for positive, uncontentious rhetorical purposes (e.g., "The people of Utopiland have, through their collective will, successfully overcome the challenges of banana fever".)<br /> To say a sizeable population, defined by their religion, has a "collective will" to do something you believe is evil verges on racism. You claim to be a Buddhist -are you part of the "collective will" to murder, rape and expel Rohingya people?<br /> <br /> " The motion to create the current state of Israel was driven by bankers..."<br /> <br /> ...actually, it was driven by the will of many Jewish people to establish their own state post-World War 2, supported by massive popular support in Western Europe, the USA and allied nations. And the policy of the UK, then occupying Palestine, to withdraw. The USA and USSR both voted to establish Israel, the UK abstained.<br /> <br /> For historical reasons that are very well understood a small minority of Jewish people became successfully established in banking. The use of 'bankers' as a synonym for 'Jews', the allegation that Jewish people somehow control or disproportionately influence the wider banking system, or that "the banks" collectively conspire to favour some peoples over others (disregarding the fact that banks are in competition with each other, and there are many banks, both state-owned and privately owned, from many nations), are crude, easily falsified racist (and populist) tropes that long pre-date the founding of the state of Israel. Much used by the Nazis. <br /> <br /> I don't care about your interpretation of Siouxsie and the Banshees' lyrics. And I'm not commenting on Israeli-Palestinian relations, or the merits or otherwise of any religion.<br /> <br /> I just hate racism, and I believe you are parroting racist beliefs.<br />

@NomadMonad great point, like any good art, it provokes thought, and open to interpretation from person to person.

@feufollet she is atoning for nothing. She has the right to free speech and free expression. This song is about the suffering of Palestinians at the hands of Israel, that’s what Siouxsie is singing about.

@feufollet I don’t think Siouxsie felt she had to atone, she, like a lot of punks at that time wore swastikas and Nazi symbolism to shock etc. I doubt she regrets the fundamentals of punk.

@feufollet „Little orphans in the snow..“ it’s about post holocaust time. After the war.<br /> Siouxsie said herself for being ashamed for wearing swastika , she said she didn’t understand the true meaning of it , and did wear David star for a while<br /> Not every song about Israel is with criticism about it.. <br /> Sorry to disappoint you. Read the facts about the band first .

Hi, I'm poster LeFeuFollet - lost original sign-on. Was not refuting the references to Palestine, and Siousxie tends to favour the oppressed and does address political or cultural issues no question. Swimming Horses another obvious example of this, about honour killings.<br /> <br /> What I was saying in my original post was that in addition wearing a star of David is an obvious counterpoint to wearing a Swastika.<br /> <br /> As a postscript, the punk idea if wearing a swastika as an "up yours" to the previous generation was always thin in logic, and still repellent. Looking at Johnny Thunders in one was always depressing too, when he made such great music. The symbol will always represent death and destruction...

@feufollet The swastika is an Indian religious symbol which the Nazis stole in perhaps the worst act of cultural appropriation ever. You can still see it on Hindu and Buddhist temples all over India. So it's not entirely correct to say it will always mean death and destruction. Siouxsie, Sid Vicious and a few others weren't wearing it as a nod to eastern religions though, more as a stupidly immature attempt to shock mainstream sensibilities.