Leaders of Men

To me this song expresses several things. It expresses anger and frustration that authority figures cause when they impose their will on you. "the seeds that are sown are no longer your own."

It also speaks of dumb people who will believe anything that they are told by polititions,teachers and other people in power. "A thousand words are spoken loud. Reach the dumb to fool the crowd."

"When you walk down the street And the sound's not so sweet And you wish you could hide Maybe go for a ride...."

This line I can really identify with. People say alot of things that are ignorant/and or disturbing and sometimes I just want to hide away from it all.

It seems to me this one really is about Nazism, more specifically about how the Nazis abused Weimar democracy and public sentiments to seize power, with terrible consequences.

"Born from some mother's womb/Just like any other room"

• this line grapples with the fact that, while we're all born into the world as helpless innocent babies, some individuals do turn out to be 'leaders of men' and to have a consequential impact on the world - Hitler, for example. As much as I dislike Great Man Theory, I have to concede that, while there would probably have been a WW2 at some point without Hitler, the actions and ideologies of that individual shaped the course of history.

"Made a promise for a new life/Made a victim out of your life"

• the Nazis came into power on the back of public dissatisfaction in the context of economic turmoil in inter-war Germany and national humiliation at the outcome of WWI. The Nazi party promised German people a 'new life' (i.e. economic prosperity and a renewed strong German state) but ultimately all they delivered was a war which made victims out of many of their own supporters. Nazi power was indeed 'born out of frustration' and enjoyed mass popular support - at rallies people often displayed a 'strange infatuation' with Hitler.

'When your times on the door...'

• This might refer to the fact that, once in power, the Nazis turned on various groups within society one by one. There was a culture of fear and even the most obedient individuals worried that they were next in line for persecution for whatever spurious reason. For many supporters it probably became apparent that they'd made a terrible mistake and they now faced a 'nightmare situation' that they couldn't escape.

"And the seeds that are sown/ Are no longer your own"

• the seeds had been sown but the public no longer had ANY control, democracy (however tenuous and unsatisfactory it had proven in the Republic) was no more... enter totalitarianism...

'Just a minor operation To force a final ultimatum'

• Perhaps relates to how quickly Nazi policies became barbaric and depraved, starting with persecutions of political opponents which probably didn't seem too egregious to many ordinary people (there was a lot of anti-communist sentiment) but progressing to the absolute horror of the Final Solution which is repugnant to anyone with an ounce of humanity. 'Minor operation' could also refer to the Nazi expansionism that led, step by step, to world war (the 'final ultimatum' which Hitler probably wanted all along, although he hugely underestimated what it would actually entail).

'Smacks of past holy wars'

• This probably refers to how Nazi war mongering was absolutely driven by ideology. It wasn't just your 'regular' modern era war of state expansionism or imperial ambition. For Hitler it was a war of religion (the 'religion' being racial purity).

'Made a promise for a new life/No saviour for our sakes/To twist the internees of hate/Self-induced manipulation'

• these few lines really sum it up. Hitler got into power on the promises discussed above, but he had no intention of being a 'saviour' for ordinary German people who, understandably, were dissatisfied and disillusioned in the 1920s. He used power to ruthlessly pursue his twisted policies of hate, interning (and exterminating) political opponents, Jews, Slavs, Poles, disabled people, etc. The fact that Curtis uses the term 'self-induced manipulation' suggests a lack of sympathy for the predicament of German citizens who supported the Naxi party in the early 1930s, but I think he understood very well the forces that were at play, and was quite fascinated by this historically unique and tragic series of events.

I've been reading some great books on WWI by Keegan, Graves, and Fussel, and I guess because of my selections, this song really reminds me of those men who were goaded into fighting the great war. What an illusion that was.

definately one of my favourite joy division songs... wht its about, i have no idea. knowing ian curtis its probably something deep and meaningful.

is it just me, or does Ian sound a lot like David Bowie in this song? it sounds like Curtis and Bowie are singing it together. awesome song none-the-less, i love the gutiar.

I've been reading some great books on WWI by Keegan, Graves, and Fussel, and I guess because of my selections, this song really reminds me of those men who were goaded into fighting the great war. What an illusion that was.

auto_suggestion is right. It does sound a lot like bowie. 'When your time's on the door And it drips to the floor And you feel you can touch All the noise is too much And the seeds that are sown Are no longer your own' The build up of this bit sounds alot like David Bowie's 'Queen Bitch' thats what I think anyway..

OK, this isn't taking the piss, but I thought the last line was "To crush our thoughts of masturbation" which would kind of change the whole meaning. Any thoughts?

i love the way ian sings in this song he sounds like a proper manc lad

I fucking love Joy Division but the guitar in this song is extremely similar to Achilles Last Stand by Led Zeppelin.