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listen man, you know what? i know where you're coming from. i'm neither going to shoot down everything you said nor agree with you, obviously we're getting nowhere, but the 'wall of god' is not crumbling, far from it. i know many scientists who are christians, and they all say studying it has made their faith stronger. as for me, i don't naturally assume that we came from god no matter what i've heard, it's just the most reasonable conclusion. and i know, science, science, im narrowminded, whatever. "i prefer logic over religion" me too, but the facts surrounding religion arent illogical. and you said yourself you agree that carbon dating has it's flaws, well you know what? its the only thing that leads to a billion-year old earth. everything else, from the dust on the moon to the oldest tree, to the moon's gravitational pull, to the earth's erosion rate, all point to a young earth. and i know you'll say this doesn't necessarily prove this, and you may be right, but the only thing "proving" an old earth is carbon dating, and its proven inaccurate. as for what you said about new research, even these naturally occuring elements had to come from somewhere, as does UV light. it occurs naturally, but even nature, and the concept of nature, had to come from somewhere. as for where god came from, ill agree with you, the concept of god always existing is unfathomable, but it's supposed to be. god isn't natural, hes not a scientific formula or the result of some synthesis reaction, he's supernatural. and whether the universe came from god, buddha, allah or whoever, the fact remains. something supernatual had to happen for this world to come into being. nothing comes from nothing. listen, im not trying to force my beliefs down your throat, and its laughable to hear that i never searched for my answer. buddy, you don't know me. youre just among the narrow-minded dipshits giving into stereotypes that people believing in god are obvlivious to science. man, i've looked. believe it or not, the bible isn't just a storybook, it's a divine road map of our existence that even to this day, cannot be proven wrong, not one verse. i could give you bits of proof form this and examples, and i willif you ask, but you don't want to hear it. same with the jesus being god thing, i have an entire book on the subject, i can give you samples of proof if you want, but im sure you dont. its called the case for christ. its by a former lawyer and editor of a chicago newspaper who went on a mission to disprove god and christ. a skeptic, just like you, who thought christians were stupid ignorant people who were oblivious to the "facts" around them. the guys a minister now. its a good book. even evolutionists say things on the subject of evolution. louis bonoure said "evolution is nothing more than a fairy tale for grown-ups. it has proved nothing in the progress of science. it is useless" even people whove studied it their whole lives (and dont believe in god) don't believe it. its not as groundbreaking and truth-bearing as you think. but anyways, im not gonna discourage you (and i wasn't trying to from the beginning, just defending myself), and you're not gonna discourage me. i can understand where you're coming from, i was once there myself, end of story. i have looked, and this is the conclusion ive come to. if you cant take that, tough. people who believe in god are narrowminded, i know, thats what narrowminded people say, i think. but if we're all here in natural selection, the strong shall survive, survival of the fittest, then the greatest man that ever lived was hitler.